This guy makes one mistake in his reasoning. He’s absolutely right about Trump not offering a real peace deal, but he talks about the conflict as if it’s something the US forced on Russia, which is of course not true; it’s Russia, and specifically Putin, who chose to start this war and invade Ukraine. He talks about NATO expansion as if that’s something the US is pushing, but again, countries want to join NATO because they feel threatened by Russia.
Russia started this war because NATO rejected Ukraine’s membership, leaving Ukraine vulnerable. But it wasn’t a definitive rejection, leaving Putin to think he had a closing window of opportunity to invade Ukraine, which is why he rushed into this foolish war. Harder guarantees for Ukrainian security would have dissuaded Putin.
EU, meanwhile, never wanted anything like this, and even remained in denial after the invasion started. The EU just wants to trade with Russia and treat it as a normal country, a trading partner. Even after Putin invaded, they kept buying Russian gas for quite some time and some countries really didn’t want to stop. Because gas is more important than human lives, to some.
Freezing the conflict is a bad idea; there needs to be a permanent peace, but there can only be a permanent peace if Russia stops invading its neighbours (this wasn’t the first time), and Putin made it clear he has no plans to stop. He’s frequently talking about Lithuania, Moldova, and more recently Azerbaijan.
It’s pretty clear what the problem is here. It’s Russian imperialism. Putin’s dreams of empire. His unwillingness to accept other nations as equals.
This is a very naive reading of the Ukraine-Russian conflict. First of all, the conflict actually started in 2014 when Russia reacted by annexing Crimea after president Yanukovych was ousted following the Maidan uprising (which was carried out with EU/US support). Since then, there have been many skirmishes between Ukrainian military and pro-Russian separatist groups in the Donbass region, before Russia escalated the conflict in 2022. You should know that Crimea and Donbass are regions of a Russian ethnical majority, and these people didn’t support the Maidan uprising.
Secondly, I am tired of people (especially liberals) which talk about laws, agreements and treaties as having some kind of supernatural power to stop things from happening. It’s as if treaties, laws, agreements and commitments were never broken in real life, as if there was a supreme mystical power that bounded every party to commit to them.
Ukraine is not under NATO in all but paper. Its troops were trained by NATO countries, they are being supplied by NATO countries, there are mercenaries (and clandestine troops) from NATO fighting in the frontlines, the intelligence provided to Ukraine is from NATO countries. Not only that but the top NATO members are overseeing all Ukraine political decisions. Ukraine is not in NATO today because NATO countries never wanted to be directly involved in the first place and just wanted that Ukraine and Russia to bleed each other for their benefit.
Today NATO is actually a means to make all members fund the US military industrial complex, and provide other material and human resources to US, Germany, France and UK imperialist adventures. To this day NATO was never used as a defensive alliance, but NATO was always used in offensives against other countries. If Russia was weak like Afghanistan, then I’m sure NATO would have advanced in full force, like they did after the 9/11 attacks.
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What matters is the will of the people. It’s the people who overthrew Yanukovich
“What matters is the will of the fascists who overthrew the democratically elected government.”
It was a coup by Banderite fascists with US support. Maidan was a false flag massacre of protesters & police by Banderite snipers. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23311886.2023.2269685
If the Donbass separatists had such popular support, Donbass would have been independent without requiring Russian support.
So the coup-government-backed Banderite paramilitary attacks on eastern & southern Ukraine between 2014 and 2022, causing ~14,000 fatalities had nothing to do with it?
He talks about NATO expansion as if that’s something the US is pushing
The US has been pushing that since the Warsaw Pact dissolved, and was planning for it long before. Weaponizing Europe, Countering Eurasia: Mackinder, Brzezinski, Nuland and the Road to the Ukraine War
Next you’re going to tell us that NATO is a defensive alliance.
The US-backed Maidan coup and US & Ukraine-supported fascist paramilitary attacks on eastern & southern Ukraine:
- Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU
- Leaked recording between Nuland and Pyatt: audio | transcript
- Counterpunch, 2014: US Imperialism and the Ukraine Coup
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Consortium News, 2015: The Mess That Nuland Made Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland engineered Ukraine’s regime change without weighing the likely consequences.
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraine’s new language law will have long-term consequences
- Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties?
- Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
- Consortium News, 2023: The West’s Sabotage of Peace in Ukraine Former Israeli Prime Minister Bennett’s recent comments about getting his mediation efforts squashed in the early days of the war adds more to the growing pile of evidence that Western powers are intent on regime change in Russia.
- Internationalist 360°, 2022–2024: History of Fascism in Ukraine: Part I, Part II, Part III, Part IV
- NYT, 2024: U.N. Court to Rule on Whether Ukraine Committed Genocide
NATO expansion:- George Washington Univ., 2017: NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner
- Orinoco Tribune, 2022: Former German Chancellor Merkel Admits that Minsk Peace Agreements Were Part of Scheme for Ukraine to Buy Time to Prepare for War With Russia
- Al Mayadeen, 2023: Zelensky admits he never intended to implement Minsk agreements
- Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace
- Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: NATO Chief Admits NATO Expansion Was Key to Russian Invasion of Ukraine
NATO in general:- The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World
- CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance
- Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world”
- Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism
- Gabriel Rockhill, 2020: The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
Wow, what’s happening here? We don’t like Fox news and Newsmax but Tass is acceptable?
Jesus, Lemmy, get a grip.
round here on .ml we dont shun good news sources jus cuz western
propa“media” doesnt like itWhat sources do you find acceptable?
Russian state media. Not a credible source for anything (see also the other articles for some glaring examples of misinformation).
Although if Ukraine has less PoWs to exchange, part of the reason might be that Russia would rather see their soldiers die than surrender. They actively shoot their own soldiers.
Source: watched Enemy at the Gates one time
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Not believing every single piece of anti Russian propaganda, no matter how silly it is, is not the same as being pro-Russian
No, but claiming Russian state media is more independent and reliable than the diversity of western media, is.
diversity of western media
Owned by a handful of billionaires and beholden to their interests. It’s like thinking that the different brands of bottled water are “diverse” because they have different packaging.
The person you’re replying to claimed Russian state media is more reliable than the fiction film Enemy at the Gates. If you’ve seen a diverse set of Western outlets claiming Russian military strategy is shooting their own soldiers, then I’m afraid the outlets you trust are less reliable than Russian state media.
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Why are you even bringing up a fictional movie in the first place?
I mean it wasn’t me, but that’s because that’s a scene in the film. You or your source were confusing the plot of the film for reality.
Is that seriously the argument you’re going with? You do understand that the only possible conclusion after making such an outrageous claim is that you’re here to deny Russian atrocities, right? You’re exposing yourself.
Russia are not cartoon villains. They are rational villains. No large organisation acts like cartoon villains. When they do evil things, it’s for the sake of a goal that makes sense. If someone has told you about atrocities committed by Russia which don’t further Russia’s goals, then they have lied to you. Those atrocities either never happened or were not committed by Russia.
And I never claimed that, yet you called me pro Russian anyway
There are people here doing exactly that, and just a few comments up, you’re trying to defend Russian state media by comparing criticism of Russian state media with a movie.
Which is not a comparison that makes any sense at all. You start out grasping at straws and are trying ti recover from that.
Why are you replying to yourself?
I posted that as a reply to https://lemmy.zip/comment/21065746. Not sure how that went wrong.
haha yea, the western media says it’s un-credible so it must be true! Not lik they have any incentive to slander a news outlet that bucks approved western narratives or anythin. Nope. No reason at all! 😂
Unlike Russian state media, western media is independent and not beholden to their government, but nice try.
You cannot be serious. You know Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post, right? What do you think is happening here?
The only difference between Russian State media and our media, is that the western ruling class is savvy enough to launder their propaganda through privately owned media.
It’s absolutely terrible that so many American media is owned by billionaires, but that’s not all of western media, and it’s still not the same as Russian state media.
I still don’t get why so many people here are so desperate to defend the state-controlled media of a brutal dictatorship.
Russia is no more a “brutal dictatorship” than the US is, or the UK, or any number of other capitalist shithole countries that call themselves “democracies.” Russian state media is no worse than, for example, the BBC or CNN. But more importantly, it does not have the global reach that the BBC and CNN have. The key thing that you’re utterly failing to understand here is that Russia does not have the global hegemony that the US has (and NATO in general, though NATO is just a collection of vassal states subservient to US capital). Russian state media cannot begin to compete on the global stage with the overwhelming stranglehold that western media has over not only their own domestic populations but the rest of the world. We here in the west are not saturated day in and day out by Russian propaganda, but we absolutely are by western capital (which is synonymous with US state) propaganda. Pretending like this is an even playing field is absurd and it’s why no one here is taking your whining about eBiL RuZzIaN media seriously. It’s not about “defending” Russian media, it’s about recognizing geopolitical reality.
Russia is no more a “brutal dictatorship” than the US is, or the UK, or any number of other capitalist shithole countries that call themselves “democracies.”
Surely you must recognise how ridiculous that claim is.
Sure, Trump would love for it to be true, and he’s certainly trying to, but even in the US, you can still publicly say this, while in Russia, you’d be headed for prison. Putin’s political opponents frequently fall out of windows or catch some polonium poisoning.
These things are not the same, and pretending they are, makes you blind to how much worse they can still get. Russia is absolutely more of a brutal dictatorship than even the US, but especially than most European countries.
I’m not denying the toxic influence of money either, but that’s still not comparable to the hold Putin has over his country and his media.
Putin’s political opponents frequently fall out of windows or catch some polonium poisoning.
Hmm… I wonder what happened to the original leadership of BLM? And hey, what are Fred Hampton and Mark Clark up to these days? Has Gary Webb published any articles recently?
These things are not the same, and pretending they are, makes you blind to how much worse they can still get. Russia is absolutely more of a brutal dictatorship than even the US, but especially than most European countries.
Oh believe me, I am well aware how bad they can get, you’re just completely unaware of how bad they’ve already been. You believe all these lies about how terrible Russia is, looking at it only through the lens that western propagandists have carefully cultivated for you without realizing that every accusation they’ve levied on their enemies is a confession about what they themselves have been doing all along. You’re as intellectually domesticated by US imperialist interests as any diehard Kremlin-supporting Russian citizen, only you have the benefit of being on the side that enjoys global hegemony without even understanding what that word means. You’re all up in arms about the lies of the media of an enemy state without having even an ounce of self awareness about the lies of the media you’re consuming, the very same media from which you think you’ve learned how uniquely bad the enemy’s media is.
Surely you must recognise how ridiculous that claim is.
You seem to endlessly fall back on this, have you noticed? Just raw Appeals to Personal Incredulity.
but that’s not all of western media.
Please, go on. I’d love to hear more.
I still don’t get why so many people here are so desperate to defend the state-controlled media of a brutal dictatorship.
…or just accuse me of something I wasn’t doing. You’re definitely someone who approaches things in good faith, unlike the Russians.
Read the rest of the discussion. To me, you come across as part of a mob trying to defend Russian state media. And yes, arguing that all of western media, despite its freedom of the press, diversity of ownership and various degrees of editorial independence, is just as bad as Russian state media, is defending it.
I’m not arguing that all of western media is perfect; much of it is corrupt (especially in the US, but that is not all of the west). But not all of it is that bad. And even the corrupt ones frequently disagree with each other. That gives us access to much more diverse reporting than Russian state media provides.
I am aware that making sense of that diversity requires critical thought, which is in increasingly short supply in recent years.
Also note that the link you shared, of Trump flanked by billionaires, comes from western media.
Read the rest of the discussion. To me, you come across as part of a mob trying to defend Russian state media.
And I’m saying that’s a problem with your reading comprehension; not the content of my argument. Especially because I never defended Russian state media. I too think state media is bad. The difference between you and I is that I’m not fooled by the corporate proxy that is western media.
I’m not arguing that all of western media is perfect; much of it is corrupt (especially in the US, but that is not all of the west). But not all of it is that bad.
Again, go on…
I am aware that making sense of that diversity requires critical thought, which is in increasingly short supply in recent years.
And yet you seem to struggle to explain how it’s so “diverse.” What’s diverse about it? Who are the non-corrupt Western sources? Please tell me, since I’m so stupid 😕
“Independent” western media? I’d sooner find a unicorn
Tell me who NRC is beholden to, then.
NRC is beholden to the massive corporate conglomerate Mediahaus, which is, in turn, beholden to the Belgian oligarch Thomas Leysen.
They’ve got a strict separation between ownership and editors, though. They regularly go against the grain and report deeper than merely repeating the convenient narrative.
Sure, capitalism and independent media don’t go together well, but state control and i dependent media are an even worse combination, and on the scale of what’s possible, NRC is doing quite well. Certainly much better than Tass.
They’ve got a strict separation between ownership and editors, though.
No they don’t. Ultimately ownership chooses who works there.
They regularly go against the grain and report deeper than merely repeating the convenient narrative.
How did you determine this?
Sure, capitalism and independent media don’t go together well, but state control and i dependent media are an even worse combination
Pure vibes based statement.
and on the scale of what’s possible, NRC is doing quite well.
How did you determine the this? Because it tells you narratives that agree with your world view?
Western media is usually beholden to state department lines, and recieves partial funding. Moreover, western media is thoroughly under the control of wealthy capitalists laser-focusing on their own interests. There’s no such thing as “free” mass media.
Which state department do you mean? Are you aware that “western media” is spread over 2 dozen different countries? Sure, US corporate media is highly partisan and corrupt, but even the US has independent media, and many other countries have much more independent media. They’re certainly not as dominated by the state, let alone a single state, as they are in Russia. Not even in the US (although that’s certainly moving in that direction). And in every western country, even the US, the media will often disagree with or debunk the government’s narrative.
Private media is beholden to the wealthiest in society, and often recieves state funding as well. This is true across all western nations, including European nations. The few, minor independent news organizations that go against the grain are overwhelmed by the standard mass media.
Bullshit. Sure, in the US everything is corporate owned and controlled. But in Europe, there are media reporting every side of every story. My primary newspaper (NRC, a major Dutch newspaper) has no problem going against the grain when the situation calls for it. But even in the US with its highly partisan media, there are news outlets for every political leaning, and many do not blindly parrot the government narrative like Russian media does.
Whatever misgivings you have about western media (and some are definitely justified), it’s really no comparison to Russia, where a wrong word can have you falling out of a window. Putin brutally silences dissent in a way even Trump can only dream of.
Dutch media isn’t particularly different from US media. Further, the “every political leaning” really just translates to various flavors of right-wing, from SocDem to fascist. What gets boosted by private investors is what permeates discourse. Private media is no less biased than state media.
The netherlands are absolutely not exempt from this phenomenon. It affects every country where capital stands above political power and the media, including yours.
Putin brutally silences dissent in a way even Trump can only dream of.
Israel has murdered more journalists than Putin could dream of, with full support of Europe.
This coming from someone who was perfectly happy using the Ukrainian military as a source. Are you going to also try to argue that they are independent from the state?
I don’t know what you’re talking about, and I doubt you do. You’re here defending Tass as a source.
I’m talking about here https://lemmy.ml/post/35157502/20675876.
So yes, I do know what I’m talking about, and I suspect you know to, and are just pretending not to because you can’t actually defend yourself on this.
western media is independent and not beholden to their government
Good one! 😂😂
Definitely better than Russian media.
Source on them shooting their own soldiers???
Well, the thing is Ukraine has been known to use barrier troops. And not only is there actual video footage https://sputnikglobe.com/20231231/watch-group-of-retreating-ukrainian-soldiers-shot-by-barrier-troops-1115907212.html but there is an azov commander openly talking about “motivational troops” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QQO1KrjN6o&t=3228s
Lol, those are literally using the Ukrainian military as their source. Not even state media, literally just the state military itself. You absolute hypocrite.
Are you arguing that all video from a warzone is inherently fake?
While it’s true that truth is the first casualty in war, and you’ve got to apply that filter to all news coming from any warzone (also the Russian side; again, see what you’re defending), the reports on Russian atrocities, even against their own soldiers, are overwhelming. They’re also coming from Russian sources.
But sure, keep your head in the sand. You probably also don’t believe reports about IDF atrocities in Gaza, do you?
You know someone has nothing when they’re resorting to “are you saying that [obviously false statement that doesn’t actually resemble what they said]?”
the reports on Russian atrocities, even against their own soldiers, are overwhelming. They’re also coming from Russian sources.
You say, having only been able to provide sources from the Ukrainian government.
U see you defend imperialists and deny reports of their atrocities. You may call that “nothing”, but I don’t.
But sure, let’s get some nore sources:
https://www.foxnews.com/world/russian-war-hero-the-executioner-allegedly-ordered-troops-shoot-him-massive-payout-scheme-report (note: originally reported by a Russian source)
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-troops-raped-tortured-children-ukraine-un-panel-says-rcna49168 (UN reporting on Russian atrocities)
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4297872-shooting-their-own-soldiers-one-more-russian-act-of-barbarity-in-ukraine/ (US and many other sources)
https://metro.co.uk/2023/06/13/russian-troops-filmed-executing-comrades-trying-to-flee-frontline-18943873/ (Ukrainian drone, but it’s caught on video. Want to argue that didn’t happen?)
https://guardian.pressreader.com/article/281908777399398
Here’s Wikipedia on barrier troops: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_troops
Obviously you’re unlikely to see Russian media reporting on how they shoot their own soldiers as a matter of policy, and obviously the only parties close to the front lines as Russian and Ukrainian, but there is a variety of sources reporting on this, and Russia has a known history of using barrier troops.
But if you believe only Russian state media is telling the truth, then no amount of facts will convince you.
U see you defend imperialists and deny reports of their atrocities.
Once again: Not believing every single piece of anti Russian propaganda, no matter how silly it is, is not the same as being pro-Russian.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/russian-war-hero-the-executioner-allegedly-ordered-troops-shoot-him-massive-payout-scheme-report (note: originally reported by a Russian source)
This article literally does not contain your claim! You are just LYING THROUGH YOUR TEETH now.
I’m not going to address the rest of them if you’re just deliberately posting unrelated articles and lying about their contents, because at that point it’s clear you’re just being dishonest and trying to waste time!
I wonder if this community has moderation. I take all this propaganda shit personally because I live in Russia and fighting Russian propaganda seems futile to me but I at least Lemmy feels so cozy and friendly to me but then I face this shit again and it brakes my heart.
I’m also Russian but living in US. ‘fighting Russian propaganda’ isn’t really a priority for me tbh. It’s just another side of the story to be evaluated with the rest of the propaganda coming from state and corporate media sources.
I prefer to evaluate sources where I know their biases ahead of time. Sources that pretend to be impartial and unbiased are perfectly capable of spreading propaganda too.
“Unbiased” just means establishment liberal at this point.
I’m sorry, man. Usually it’s better here. This is a weird day.
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Orrrrrrrrrr you could just put down the western propaganda and free your self from colonialism js
Are you from US?
Freeing people from colonialism requires defeating Russia. That’s the last remaining colonial empire in Europe that’s still holding on to most of its colonies. And even wants the few it’s lost back.
HUGE Projection
About what? The other European colonial powers have lost most of their colonies. Spain and Portugal don’t control South America anymore. The UK doesn’t control India, Africa, Canada, Australia or the US. Netherlands doesn’t control Indonesia or Suriname. France doesn’t control western Africa (although it does still try to interfere sometimes). But Russia still controls Siberia. And they also want Ukraine back.
That’s a real colonial power. Modern neocolonialism notwithstanding, Russia still has the original thing.
a third of African countries have a monetary policy run out of EU right now; CFA Franc is used by like 200 million people.
By choice, mind you. The CFA franc was introduced during colonial times, but after their independence, countries have the option to keep it or get their own currency. Some introduced their own currency. Others, that had never been French colonies, adopted the CFA franc.
It is absolutely a remnant of colonialism, but countries are free to adopt it or not.
So its still colonialism, and you’re doing the IMAX
We’re not talking about the CFA franc; we’re talking about neocolonialism, about World Bank and IMF debt traps and imposed neoliberal shock therapies.
Imagine how dishonest you would have to be to claim that all or Europe isn’t colonial because they’ve mostly not formally gotten overseas colonies, but Russia is “a real colonial power” because they control Siberia (not as a colony, mind, just as part of the country).
Dwarves maybe?
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Russia has thousands more dead soldiers.
Isn’t that bad optics for Ukraine? If they’re killing more and capturing less, then that has to mean something like Ukraine is killing POWs (a war crime), or Ukrainian soldiers have a higher desire to surrender, which could be indicative of idealogical sympathy or of horrible treatment by the army.
During the 2022 offensive Ukraine themselves claimed KIA:PoW ratio something like 21 to 1. For comparison, even the most brutal fighting on Okinawa which is infamous for Japanese not surrendering and US not taking prisoners had that ratio around 14 to 1. So by their own admission Ukraine was either not taking prisoners or killing surrendering soldiers.
Ok??? Is this the cope Olympics or
